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Shiro san
11-05-2007, 12:15 PM
Mohon komentar sejujurnya dari para pakar. Saya beli dari Tulungagung, showa 18 cm dan shiro 22 cm. Apa saya nggak salah pilih? bagaimana masa depan body dan patternnya? apa berpotensi jumbo? Thanks (Hendry)
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x211/hsetya/shiroshowa.jpg

cantonguy
11-05-2007, 03:17 PM
Rasanya kalo pun bisa di atas 60cm , kalo berharap bodi spt di kalender2 rasanya sangat berat .
Cuman dipelihara dulu aja mana tau saya yang salah .

Utk pattern :
Shiro utsuri : mata merah = fault .
Tancho sanke = pattern cukup ok .

Utk body : tancho sanke lbh bagus dari shiro.



Mohon komentar sejujurnya dari para pakar. Saya beli dari Tulungagung, showa 18 cm dan shiro 22 cm. Apa saya nggak salah pilih? bagaimana masa depan body dan patternnya? apa berpotensi jumbo? Thanks (Hendry)
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x211/hsetya/shiroshowa.jpg

dattairadian
12-05-2007, 08:05 AM
Pak Hendry,

Seperti kata Pak Riwin, mata shironya merah. Selain itu saya melihat sepertinya ada beberapa spot perbedaan warna di beberapa tempat di kepala (seperti merah bekas gesekan). Ada indikasi jika itu bekas warna merah yang pernah "dihilangkan" (cmiiw)

Pada saat ini (base on photo), body tancho memang lebih baik. Tapi walaupun demikian saya masih agak optimis jika shironya juga bisa besar. Bahkan mgkn siapa tahu nanti bisa menyusul ukuran tanchonya (asal ukuran ikan itu pada saat ini relatif sama)

Tapi secara garis besar, ke 2 ikan bapak menurut saya lumayan ok, walaupun mata shiro merah dan warna~nerikome merah tanchonya kurang tebal (maaf jika saya salah, karena penilaian ini dari photo, yang besar kemungkinan missleadingnya).

salam ...

masterpizzkoi
12-05-2007, 09:34 AM
Shiro San (Tuan Putih),

Biar lebih mantap dalam menimbang koi anda, juga bila anda tidak keberatan cantumkan harga belinya, agar kita bisa menilai apakah harga sesuai dengan mutunya.

Tetapi bila ada yang berpendapat 'kemahalan', anda jangan kecewa ya !

Salam

Shiro san
14-05-2007, 08:54 AM
wah saya baru tahu istilah di criiw itu. memang di bagian kepala shironya itu ada bagian seperti transparant. kalo seperti itu apa memang sampai besar nanti nggak bisa berubah? (jadi putih padad atau malah merah?).
Untuk bagian mata sih sebenarnya nggak merah, itu karena pengaruh flash kamera aja. Sebab saya ambil fotonya waktu malam, langsung di kolam. Tapi saya jadi lebih tahu, memang kalo mata ikan merah itu nggak bagus ya?
Yang saya belum tahu itu gimana caranya menentukan bahwa body showa lebih bagus dari shironya. Bisa nggak diberi ilmu ya pak Riwin dan Mr. dattairadian. Supaya nanti kalo hunting ikan lagi lebih jitu.
Kalo harganya waktu saya beli shironya 1 jt (20cm) dan tancho showa 300 ribu (15 cm). Btw, thanks atas semua masukannya.

dimashp
14-05-2007, 12:26 PM
tancho showa 300 ribu (15 cm)

Pak, komentar pribadi aja ya...Untuk Tancho Showa-nya

Great Value for Money Pak !

Disimpen aja terus, btw ini lokal ato import ?

Dimas

dattairadian
15-05-2007, 09:28 AM
wah saya baru tahu istilah di criiw itu. memang di bagian kepala shironya itu ada bagian seperti transparant. kalo seperti itu apa memang sampai besar nanti nggak bisa berubah? (jadi putih padad atau malah merah?).

Jika lihat posisi seperti di foto, nanti jadi putih pak ... Btw, bukan criiw tapi cmiiw (correct me if i wrong) Pak :)



Tapi saya jadi lebih tahu, memang kalo mata ikan merah itu nggak bagus ya?

Tergantung jenis Pak. Untuk Shiro, jelas menjadi satu kelemahan...



Yang saya belum tahu itu gimana caranya menentukan bahwa body showa lebih bagus dari shironya. Bisa nggak diberi ilmu ya pak Riwin dan Mr. dattairadian. Supaya nanti kalo hunting ikan lagi lebih jitu.

Bodi yang baik tentunya yang "kekar" pak. Saya menilai bahwa body showa lebih baik untuk saat ini (berdasarkan informasi photo bapak) ... tapi untuk masa depannya, saya lebih megang shironya ... Rawat yang baik saja pak ...


Kalo harganya waktu saya beli shironya 1 jt (20cm) dan tancho showa 300 ribu (15 cm)

Cukup mahal ya Pak... Kalo gitu dirawat yang baik saja .....

svenni
15-05-2007, 11:20 AM
Hi,

just one thing before I start. Everyone wants an honest answer, so please don't be disappointed on certain comments but it helps to improve judgement (I earned a lot of bad comments when I started with my koi :wink: ).

Tancho Showa: The body structure is strong and distance of eyes and Ozuzu promise some potential but I doubt that this koi can even reach 65 cm (seems a local fish). The tancho seems not that strong in colour and it leaves the head area which is another minus point. White colour and sumi quality seem ok but it's a bit difficult to judge it on a photo.

Shiro: I don't think that this koi will grow above 50 cm. Ozuzu and head are really not promising. Pattern and Motoguru are nice and the white seems also good. The koi has red eyes and there seems a certain probability that some red colour will appear within some time (That's the problem when Shiro occur while breeding showa) but that's a very vague prediction. All over it might become an appealing koi but definately not a jumbo.

Regarding the prices I would not comment too much on this. That always depends on the buyer and what price he is willing to pay. For the tancho I think 1 jt. is a bit overpriced especially considering the size when it was bought.....

wibowo
15-05-2007, 02:00 PM
entah layar komputer sy yg salah atw bagaimana, sy kok lihatnya tancho sanke ya ?
btw shironya bagus ..

dimashp
15-05-2007, 02:35 PM
he koi has red eyes and there seems a certain probability that some red colour will appear within some time (That's the problem when Shiro occur while breeding showa)

Dear Svenni and Shiro San,

According to Svenn's posting, and from the picture itself, shiro's eyes are red. Last year i went to Blitar and got chance to see one of the farmer's Shiro stock. And He showed me one Shiro, but with an emerging Hi/Red from the Black Pattern. I forgot to ask him about the oyagoi...They all are not good koi...but

the thing is...Does Red eye and Hi Emerging from below in Showa caused by interbreed Shiro n Showa ? Or this is just random genetic mutation ?


Cheers,

Dimas
NB : Anyway, it's always and really hard to judge something through photograph...

Shiro san
15-05-2007, 02:47 PM
Setelah membaca komentar teman teman, kok keliatannya saya beli ikan kemahalan ya. tapi nggak apa apa itu kan pengalaman, untung sekarang lebih ngerti. lain kali kan lebih jeli menilai ikan.
Pak Dimas, kedua ikan itu ikan lokal yang saya beli di seorang breeder di Tulungagung. Sayang sekali saya tidak tahu induknya, besar atau kecil.
To Mr. Svenni, you seems an expert in koi, I very thanksfull for all your comments. You said that local koi can not grow more than 65 cm? Is that a dead price? Eventhough I will be very pleased when my kois can reach even only 60 cm. btw, what is Ozuzu? Is it correct that the structure of body is the firts priority point in judging koi? more important than the marking? My Shiro's head accually looks a bit different to others. Its mouth is smaller, I think. Is that normal ?
Pak Wibowo, yang benar itu showa atau sanke ya? sorry, saya nggak begitu faham. Thanks to you all.

dimashp
15-05-2007, 02:55 PM
Kalau untuk Shiro-nya Pak, saya rasa ukuran 20cm, itu kemahalan sih, tapi untuk tancho showa-nya kalau 350rb masih ok deh Pak, bahkan saya bisa bilang masih murah...

Disimpen aja pak, kan kita juga masih belajar, entar gimana ikannya itu kita juga prediksi jadi gak ada yang 100%...

GC nya Maruyama pas dia Tosai tuh jeleknya minta ampun ! Dikasih aja saya gak mau Pak (ya, mau sih sebenernya...hehe)...terus Musashi, pas Tosai ampe Nisai kalo gak salah, juga masih putih...tapi..pas uda jadi..................that's the beauty of koi !

Anyway, untuk ukuran ikan, yep I agree with Svenn, it's really hard to get g good quality local koi with huge potential and even then, with a great quality when it reach jumbo size...That's what happens with my Bekko on my avatar, i think its max size is 60cm...well, Male Fish...so, it is still ok...

Cherrz

svenni
15-05-2007, 07:38 PM
Setelah membaca komentar teman teman, kok keliatannya saya beli ikan kemahalan ya. tapi nggak apa apa itu kan pengalaman, untung sekarang lebih ngerti. lain kali kan lebih jeli menilai ikan.
Pak Dimas, kedua ikan itu ikan lokal yang saya beli di seorang breeder di Tulungagung. Sayang sekali saya tidak tahu induknya, besar atau kecil.
To Mr. Svenni, you seems an expert in koi, I very thanksfull for all your comments. You said that local koi can not grow more than 65 cm? Is that a dead price? Eventhough I will be very pleased when my kois can reach even only 60 cm. btw, what is Ozuzu? Is it correct that the structure of body is the firts priority point in judging koi? more important than the marking? My Shiro's head accually looks a bit different to others. Its mouth is smaller, I think. Is that normal ?
Pak Wibowo, yang benar itu showa atau sanke ya? sorry, saya nggak begitu faham. Thanks to you all.

Hi Pak,

I do not say that local koi cannot grow above 65 cm but it is a very seldom case. One of the reason (I guess) is that the selection done locally might not be as tough as in Japan, means the local breeders simply select more koi out of their spawnings than the japanese do. Secondly the main part of the parent stock is far smaller than the japanese ones (in Japan you won't find parent fish below 80 cm at least!). Even japanese Koi reaching the magical size of 80 cm are quite rare but they definately grow bigger than most of the local bred koi.

Regarding the Showa/Shiro breeding issue. I have not seen many parent stocks here but talking to the dealers here shows that almost all breeders mix the parents (varieties). Simply check out showa here. Finding a showa with nice motoguru is very difficult. A lot of the showa have either black pectoral fins or the typical sanke lines on it (or the fins are white only). This is a result mixing Sanke, Showa and Kohaku while breeding. In japan the breeders will have all parents from the same variety and try to improve their bloodlines. I make a bet that you will not find even one breeder in Blitar that has a complete stock (male & female) of Shiro Utsuri. It happens quite often that a Shiro offered in a shop has a small red mark somewhere or the mark comes some time after you bought the koi.

The red eye issue has nothing to do with the parents, it's simply a genetic problem.

Anyway, I don't want to complain about the local bred koi. I think we have a good quality available here (that's why I promote and export them to Europe :wink: ). So far I only have 2 japanese Koi in my private pond but if you want to have jumbo koi in a good quality you will need to change to import koi sooner or later.

svenni
15-05-2007, 07:41 PM
Anyway, untuk ukuran ikan, yep I agree with Svenn, it's really hard to get g good quality local koi with huge potential and even then, with a great quality when it reach jumbo size...That's what happens with my Bekko on my avatar, i think its max size is 60cm...well, Male Fish...so, it is still ok...

Cherrz

Pak,

is it possible that this fish is currently in Pancoran? Looks quite familar to me :roll:

dimashp
15-05-2007, 07:52 PM
Hello Svenn,

Yes it was in Pancoran until last week if i'm not mistaken. I asked Mr Herdy to take care of it for last koi show, but, unfortunately did not do very well compared to last Bandung show.

Well, it's mistake to enter it last time since his size is 46cm...size disadvantage at his size...and the main thing is that, i have no idea what does it look like NOW !!! :lol: So that...now i decided not to enter any of my koi for any show, unless i'm back there at Indonesia...hahaha...

Well, the avatar is previous photo, when he was 34cm few week after last Bandung Koi Show 2006...

Mr Svenn, if you still remember it and if you do not mind ? how was it ? i'm open for really honest review (no hard feeling)...if you still can remember...hehe


Dimas

svenni
15-05-2007, 07:57 PM
Pak,

the Bekko I saw was in Budiono Pekings place and it looks very much like your avatar. That koi got no. 1 during last Young Koi show and it is really good (very white skin, very white head and very good body). I think it must be yours because the clean head and the pattern on the back are easy to remember. I was asking to buy that koi but I was told that it belongs to a customer, so seems yours :D

dimashp
15-05-2007, 08:33 PM
Mr Svenni,

Are you sure ? I know that Mr Herdy might probably put all the koi inside Pak Budi's place, but it did not win for last young koi show...hahahaha...so well, maybe the one that you saw was not mine...

but it times to retire this bekko from show...

Cheers, :D

chester
15-05-2007, 10:16 PM
Pak,

the Bekko I saw was in Budiono Pekings place and it looks very much like your avatar. That koi got no. 1 during last Young Koi show and it is really good (very white skin, very white head and very good body). I think it must be yours because the clean head and the pattern on the back are easy to remember. I was asking to buy that koi but I was told that it belongs to a customer, so seems yours :D


Hi Sven, the bekko that you saw in last Wakagoi, I think, is belonged to Pak Husin Arief. The breeder is Ogata. His Shiro who got the Adult Champion in the same show is also Ogata's. Very tough for a Bekko to win a class here because they are put in the same categori with Shiro Utsuri so unless the Bekko is really good, they are mostly coming in second. :wink:

cheers

dimashp
15-05-2007, 10:52 PM
Dear Mr Svenn,

So it is confirmed that it is not my bekko, but...there is some thruth with Pak Chester post (i'm looking for excused...haha). It is hard for Bekko to get it since Shiro has a better hierarchy in comparison with Bekko. N yes, my bekko's greatest achievement is only getting 3rd in 35bu last year...hahaha...

Cheers,

Dimas



NB : Talking about bekko, i saw one in koicarp last year edition, one Jap Breeder (Ikarashi i think), sold one 60cm plus Bekko...with a superbly superb white skin ! and very interesting black pattern...and it goes for 1 Million Yen...

svenni
16-05-2007, 07:26 AM
Hi Guys,

OK. Mixed it up he he :oops:

But the one I saw in Pancoran is really nice. It has around 45-50 cm....

dattairadian
16-05-2007, 07:32 AM
entah layar komputer sy yg salah atw bagaimana, sy kok lihatnya tancho sanke ya ?
btw shironya bagus ..

Betul bos... tancho sanke .....
He he ... saya jadi kebawa istilahnya pak hendry (shiro san) sebelumnya...

dattairadian
16-05-2007, 08:23 AM
Is it correct that the structure of body is the firts priority point in judging koi? more important than the marking?

Kalo penilaian untuk masing-masing pribadi sih kalo saya pikir sesukanya saja yang punya ikan Pak :D

Tapi untuk penilaian dalam show, tergantung ukuran pak ...
Untuk ukuran dibawah 40 cm, warna & pola mendapat prosentase penilaian lebih besar dari pada bentuk badan.
Pada ukuran 40cm, penilaian warna/pola & bentuk badan menjadi 50-50
Pada ukuran di atas 40 cm, bentuk badan mendapat prosentase penilaian lebih besar dari pada warna & pola.

salam